Maheder Haileselassie - Jabulani Dhlamini

Moderated by Julie Bonzon, 21 July 2020

JB: Starting with Maheder and ‘Between yesterday and tomorrow’, could you tell us how this project came to life?

MH: ‘Between yesterday and tomorrow’ is part of a project titled ‘Shoa: A Geographical Passion’ which originally involved two curators, three visual artists from Ethiopia and three researchers who mainly worked in history, anthropology and archaeology. We looked into archives that were made by European travellers who came to Ethiopia in the 19th century and then travelled to these earlier sites such as Ankober and AliyuAmba, which used to be a market place in Shoa. In October 2018, we travelled to see these historical sites and produced work afterwards which was exhibited in Addis Ababa.

JB: How did you juxtapose contemporary photographs with the archive, and how did you select the archive that you were using?

MH: I did not use the archive as an evidence and I was also not trying to look for certain information in the archive to rephotograph in the present. I used the archive as an object, as something of the past that I can merge with the present. For example, one photo is a portrait of one of the researchers who was travelling with me. The landscape is a photograph of the palace area, in Ankober, which is a historical site. I took these photographs during our trip, then I searched the archive to find images that looked similar to the photograph that I made. So I did not use the archive as a starting point. It was a lot of material, there were not only photographs but maps and books that were written by these European travellers so selecting was not easy. I used the images I took as a base and then selected the photo archives that could work with it.

JB: What I find very interesting in both of your work, Maheder and Jabulani, is this relationship between history, memory and photography and an acute sense of how photography can filter our access to history or fill ‘gaps’ in history. Jabulani, could you tell us more about your series ‘Recaptured’?

JD: ‘Recaptured’ is a long-term project that I started before I became a photographer, by conversing with family members when I was still young. My aunt lost her legs in the Shaperville shooting (1960). I thought she was born like this but she narrated the story and I was too young to understand it. In 2008, when I was studying photography, I started taking photographs in Shaperville, which was not far from the school. I met other survivors there who told me their story. I wanted to celebrate them and their bravery. After completing my studies, I came back. It was 2010. I wanted to give them more attention, listen to them and collaborate with them. I would spend about two days with each person, each survivor. I was interested in trauma inheritance. Some people of my age, for example, young people, spoke about the shooting as if they were there. I looked at how the trauma could be inherited by the next generation, how a place can generate memories and keep trauma alive. Most people would bring me objects, for example, old archives and photographs of them taken before the shooting, or take me to specific places that ‘trapped’ their memories, that’s how the project took that direction. 

JB: The project is a mix of photographs of portraits, objects and places, is that correct?

JD: Yes, I would also have informal recorded conversations with them that I would then try to interpret visually, photographically.

JB: Looking at both of your work, I started to question what an archive can show but also omit, and how photography can potentially create a different archive, cast light on or subvert an existing one. How do you consider the archive you are working with?

MH: History is a very contested matter in Ethiopia at the moment. We debate both history and memory, not just what happened but also how to remember it. I wanted to comment on that by speaking to Ethiopians directly through the work instead of using the archive solely as a historical fact which would have forced me to address its colonial agenda. That would have been another direction.

JD: There is a quote that motivates me and how I work by Professor Keorapetse Kgositsile : ‘History gives us context and we draw important lessons from it. It affects us into what we do with the present, as we lay down the foundations for the future.’ I looked at archives to get a conversation starting. The archive takes you back in time and can help us understand where we are coming from, where we are going, and where we are now.

JB: Thinking about photography in South Africa and how much photography is a part of its historical heritage, in museums, for instance, it is interesting to consider the apparent 'lack' of photographic archive in Ethiopian institutions.

MH: We have so many archives in Ethiopia, but we don't have them in an organised form. There are so many photos, not only taken by European travellers or foreign photographers but also by Ethiopian photographers living in Ethiopia. Whenever I travelled out of the city, I come across these small photo studios that have been there for more than forty years. They have a lot of material, but these are not made available in public libraries or museums in Ethiopia. I was surprised when I came to Johannesburg, South Africa, to discover so many archives, accessible and organised in different categories. 

JD: I like what you are saying Maheder, I have been very much interested in these 'controlled' archives in South Africa. I like these more 'informal' photo studios where people are photographed the way they want to be, because I am from that background. I used to be a cameraman, I used to photograph weddings and parties. My collaborative method came from there. I am more interested in that archive too, because as we know, a lot of time, people were told how to pose, or what to do in front of the camera. I want to give people a chance to tell their stories in their own way. 

MH: I am sure that there are many photo studios all across Africa similar to the one by Malick Sidibé and Seydou Keïta in Mali, their images are what pushed me to look for photo studios in Ethiopia. What concerns me is that we don't have these photo archive in an organised form, also many negatives were lost.

JD: Yes, we should care, value this material and find ways to preserve it for the future.

JB: Hearing you both speaking, I am struck by the collaborative aspect of your work, could you tell us more about that?

JD: Photography for me is the last part of a collaboration. I like knowing someone, collaboration requires patience. You need to understand the person you are working with. Even when taking a portrait, I like to come back and show them the image, and asking what they think. To me, this is important, I like when both of our interests meet. Sometimes photographers want to take too much control.

MH: I completely agree with Jabulani. In my case, I was not photographing people but was still collaborating with the researchers and the artists I was travelling with. When I travelled to Ankober and the other historical places, I did not have a preconceived idea of the image I was going to make. Working with people who had various knowledge of the place was very helpful. It also took some of the pressure of working with this heavy material off. We travelled together for about five days and all of the conversations we had about landscape, geography, history, slave-trading in Ethiopia, really informed my knowledge and photographic practice. I gained a different perspective of the place through these discussions.

JD: Yes, I completely agree with what Maheder says. Also, by working collaboratively, especially in Africa of in South Africa per se, I think we can decolonise the use of photography, of how photography was used before.       

The transcription of this interview was made possible thanks to Le projet IMPACT by Xavier Gradoux & Jérôme Jacquin.